Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Freewheel]

 

 

Exactly so a guy sitting on the ground shouldn't be logging the time! YOUR DOING NOTHING. Skids up to skids down, what goes into the aircraft journey logbook should go into your personal logbook. This is probably why so many people that come around saying they have 1000hrs still flying like they have 300hrs because they are logging every second they are in the machine. I guess all the 100hr guys should get checked out to do all the maintenance ground runs so they can log the time to meet customers requirements.... $h!t even throw the longline on and they can say they have longline time! haha

 

Don't shoot the messenger. This document was created using guidance received from several at Transport Canada, including the Director of Standards and Associate Director of Operations.

 

When we set out at the start of this saga, my goal was not to prove my interpretation was correct, simply, that there is confusion. This confusion was identified as the root cause of TC findings when we did a thorough root cause analysis (as required by TC). I think at the very least we can all agree this confusion exists; just read the varying interpretations offered on this forum.

 

A secondary goal was to have an open and clear discussion with Transport Canada, colleagues, pilots and other industry stakeholders about this issue. To me the more important thing is that we are held to the same standard and that pilots have a clear understanding of how to properly log Flight Time and Air Time (as per the regulations and TC's expectation).

 

Currently, we are in a situation wherby TC has acknowledged this confusion existed over 6 months ago, yet they have chosen to look the other way and do nothing about it. This despite a clear commitment to "lead an initiative to clear for the industry and TC inspectors the confusion that currently exist". This is nothing new, as I am sure many have been aware of this issue for many years, yet chose to look the other way then as well. So why am I receiving findings then? Someone forgot to look the other way, and now the lid is off the can of worms...

 

 

The CARs Definition for flight time states:

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off...

 

The Company Operations Notice states:

 

Quoting Director of Standards, Jacqueline Booth: "In the case of flights with multiple landings and take-offs between start and shut down, "flight time" shall continue to be logged while the helicopter is in contact with the surface but still under control by the pilot in command. If the intent is to not terminate the flight and where there is no intent to shut down the helicopter, then the "flight time" should continue to be logged."

 

"One common misconception amongst pilots, is that flight time would include the time required for start-up and shut-down. This is not the case."

 

Quoting Associate Director Operations:

"In accordance with the interpretation provided by the Director of Standards, we agreed that for

flights where a helicopter carries out a number of landings and take-offs during the conduct of operations, the air time "recording/logging" stops while the helicopter is resting on the ground. However, the flight time "recording/logging" shall continue with the pilot at the control while the helicopter is resting on the ground. Air and Flight times recording/logging stop with the last landing and shutdown "at the end of the flight". In such cases, air time will obviously be shorter than flight time."

 

"In a situation where a flight has only one landing (at destination) before shut down, Flight Time should be the same as Air Time. "

 

I thought it was pretty clear that a maintenance run up, that is not for the purpose of taking off, and has an Air Time of 0.0 would also have a flight time of 0.0; unless of course honesty is an issue, then I guess it doesn't really matter what the rules say, does it?

 

I'd also take a pilot with a 1000 hrs flight time and 500 hours air time any time. If he is logging honestly, this stat likely means most of his flights consisted of up to 10 take-off and landings per hour.If a pilot had a 1000 hours Fight Time and Air Time, wouldn't this mean that most of his flights only had 1 take-off and 1 subsequent landing. I'd say he's likely had a 1000 hours of ferry time which might entail a landing evry 2 to 3 hours. 1000 hours of straight and level flight does very little for a low time pilot and teaches them nothing with regards to power management, aircraft control and/or decision making. Total Time never tells the whole story.

[Freewheel]

 

 

 

Anyone know what has to be followed first the CARs or the Company ops manual if they contradict one another?

Most COM's have a statement that says the CARs take precedent in the event of conflict.

 

Section 1.1 (2) in our COM states: "The instructions, policies and procedures contained in this manual are in accordance with the laws and regulations of Canada. They are intended to supplement, not replace existing regulations. In the event of conflict, the laws of the governing body having legislative authority over aviation matters where the aircraft is being operated shall take precedence."

[Petit-Lion]

Fine. So as soon as skids touch down I can jump out, smoke a cigarette and play videogames on my iPhone while the helicopter is being hot-refueled.

Piloting is not just moving the controls, I was told. Or should airline pilots not log time from A/P ON to A/P OFF? That would make flight time less than air time. I can think of some airlines which may be interested...

 

 

 

Exactly so a guy sitting on the ground shouldn't be logging the time! YOUR DOING NOTHING.

[Golden_pilot]

Fine. So as soon as skids touch down I can jump out, smoke a cigarette and play videogames on my iPhone while the helicopter is being hot-refueled.

Piloting is not just moving the controls, I was told. Or should airline pilots not log time from A/P ON to A/P OFF? That would make flight time less than air time. I can think of some airlines which may be interested...

 

 

 

Yes there is more to PILOTING then flying, but writing time in your logbook of you sitting on the ground with a machine running is wrong IMO. Piloting is dealing with customers, taking responsibility for the aircraft and equipment, checking weather and making sure the A/C is within limits and operated within limits, making sure the loads are rigged properly, rigging gear is safe, admitting when you go over a limit or do something wrong, being HONEST….

 

If you feel that putting time into your logbook while sitting on the ground is going to make you a better pilot in finding the wind, determine approaches and departures, good and bad spots to land within confines, weather calls, knowing aircraft performance from experience and not all from a manual (as we should all know they don’t all perform to what the book says), knowing and picking out good spots to go when things go wrong…….

 

Then by all means write the time of you sitting on the ground to make you sound more experienced or having your resume look good. There might as well be 10 different logbooks for the Flight time, air time, billing time, aircraft time blah blah blah.

 

Anyways I’m done with this subject, the way this is going it’s beating a dead horse.

[flingwinger]

I've always been told, and always logged first takeoff to last landing of a flight. I will continue to do so. Not logging while the aircraft is turning? Are you kidding me? All that time counts, you are responsible for the aircraft and the people around it. It's not like that time adds up to much in the big picture. Besides no one cares once you have 1000hrs+ or whatever the insurance/client requirements are met.

[Winnie]

Well,

 

Since the argument has started all over again, let's take a look at what the cars state with regards to Air Time:

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs) (CUT FROM TC Website)

 

AS it states, it is for TECHNICAL RECORDS...

 

Then let's look at flight time:

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)(again cut straight from the TC website)http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part1-subpart1-1104.htm

 

IN the ICAO world, you always log flight time, I don't understand why in Canada so many has to argue this point. Air time and flight time are NOT the same, Flight time is from the FIRST take off till LAST landing, and everything in between. Is it really that difficult to understand, for TC as well as individual pilots??

 

Note what is says in CARs 401.08:

Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

( recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and ( shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

( the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

© the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

Point (g) FLIGHT TIME, not air time...

 

There IS no separate interpretation for AIR TIME/FLIGHT TIME with regards to helicopters...
So the point is, you should log FLIGHT TIME from the moment you LIFT OFF the FIRST TIME, till the moment you LAND THE LAST TIME, any time in between, even if you spend an hour on the ground without taking off, is considered flight time, UNLESS you shut down.

Air time is only time spent in the air, and is usually the time logged by WOW switches etc.

 

Can it really be that difficult to understand??

Cheers

H.

[Freewheel]

 

 

Yes there is more to PILOTING then flying, but writing time in your logbook of you sitting on the ground with a machine running is wrong IMO. Piloting is dealing with customers, taking responsibility for the aircraft and equipment, checking weather and making sure the A/C is within limits and operated within limits, making sure the loads are rigged properly, rigging gear is safe, admitting when you go over a limit or do something wrong, being HONEST….

 

If you feel that putting time into your logbook while sitting on the ground is going to make you a better pilot in finding the wind, determine approaches and departures, good and bad spots to land within confines, weather calls, knowing aircraft performance from experience and not all from a manual (as we should all know they don’t all perform to what the book says), knowing and picking out good spots to go when things go wrong…….

 

Then by all means write the time of you sitting on the ground to make you sound more experienced or having your resume look good. There might as well be 10 different logbooks for the Flight time, air time, billing time, aircraft time blah blah blah.

 

Anyways I’m done with this subject, the way this is going it’s beating a dead horse.

I guess this means, your flight pay, your "Billing Time", and the hours you use to calculate your Flight Times when calculating your Flight Time limits as per CARs 700.15 are all "Air Time". Is that what your saying?

 

The flight time limits interests me particularly; this was the question I always asked TC inspectors (several) whenever the topic came up in past years. Whenever I brought up the Flight Time Limits as per CARs 700.15 and asked if we should use Air Time to calculate these limits they all said that pilots should use flight time (as in start to shut down or something similar). This time around they stuck to there guns that flight time = air time and HQ backed them up. So I created a document similar to my Recent CON that stated pilots should log air time when calculating Flight Time Limits; I used the same Moosonee example. When I showed it to my inspector he said he thought I was asking my pilots to "hedge their hours in their flight time limits calculations". The Director of Standards backed him up in her Official Response to the CAIRs I filed. I have to say, I definately would have a lot fewer pilots reaching limits and would not require as many pilots during the busy season if they used air time to calculate against their 700.15 limits.

 

As far as I know the regulations don't have two different defintions for "Flight Time". So depending on whether you are talking about training records, personal logbooks or Flight Time Limits you should interpret the same definition differently. Come on give me a break! that doesn't pass the basic sniff test!

 

As far as the different times go such as billing time etc., I'm pretty sure most of these arose because of this industry wide confusion. I beleive most companies used to bill "Flight Time". That is, until this "Flight Time equals Air Time" theory popped up. Billing time, ops time etc. was all created because companies were told they couldn't use Flight Time any more (unless it equalled Air Time) and they wanted to bill from start to shut down (or first lift off to last landing).

 

Under the current interpretation in the CON pilots would only log flight time in all cases and everyone would be held to the same standard. Air Time goes in the journey log for Airframe time. Although it is not required, we maintain a flight time column in the Journeylog book as well. This allows us to cross reference a pilots "Flight Time" records against the journey log.

 

I am not the one who decides the how the regulations are to be interpreted and enforced, neither are you; that is the role of TC. If you want clarification, ask for them for it.

[Golden_pilot]

So Flight time and airtime for planes I believe works as.

 

Flight time - the moment the brakes are released and the airplane moves under its own power. (Taxiing)

Air time - the moment the tires come off the ground to when they touch again.

 

Running on the ground getting T&P’s in the green is not considered flight time.

 

A skid equipped helicopter, cannot move under it’s own power unless its in the air. So flight time and airtime would be considered the same.

 

A helicopter with wheels I guess could fall into the same category as an airplane for air time and flight time.

 

I think people are considering because the helicopter is running that it’s considered as moving under it’s own power. Sure things are turning but the helicopter is still sitting there and not moving.

 

To me moving under it’s own power would be the whole helicopter moves not just pieces of the machine.

[Winnie]

NO!
Flight time is from FIRST LIFT OFF to LAST LANDING, air time is lift off to landing every time. So the statement from TC that FLIGHT TIME AND AIR TIME FOR SKID EQUIPPED HELICOPTERS IS THE SAME from Transport Canada is PATENTLY false!
They are NOT interpreting the regulations because they are not reading it.

Unfortunately they hold the ace in the end, but they really SHOULD conform to ICAO`s standard, rather than have different regions have different opinions on how this works. The US FAA even has an interpretation system where PROFESSIONAL lawyers look into the the regs, and give opinions that are binding onto the actual interpretation of the letter of the law.
I did see just this past month where a company is milking this Air time/Flight time thing to the max, in using AIR TIME as FLIGHT TIME in the flight and duty times. If they didn`t they`d have to crew out every 2 weeks...

But until certain people at TC actually let go their ego, and finally realize that THEY are not always right, then we will have this forever battle on interpretation.
As it says in the interpretation in the log book goes FLIGHT TIME...

A skid equipped helicopter, cannot move under it’s own power unless its in the air. So flight time and airtime would be considered the same.

 

 

[helicopterjim]

Why don't we just make Flight Time the time we want to charge the customer and then take 10% off Flight Time to get Air Time. That way we have one simple formula that is the same for everyone.