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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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your logic doesn't make much sense. You cant make exceptions because you feel that there is more risk or because you feel you are learning something. Every start should receive the same amount of attention, don't get complacent because you have 10 or 10000 starts. What about the guys in the 44 'twiddling their thumbs'?? there's equally as much that can go wrong there.

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You're an operator, and asking that question????

 

Ask you insurance agent for the correct answer...

I don't understand... Transport Canada now says that engine start and shutdown is not pilot work, why should I pay a pilot top dollars to do that?

But you are right, indeed. TC does not rule this industry. Insurance companies do.

 

BTW, if you still wonder whether I am an operator, the "top dollar pilot" bit is a clue ;)

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I'm curious how many of you work for companies that have the statement in their COM (under technical Records section in Chapter 4) that states "Flight Time and Air Time are the same for skid equipped helicopter, accordingly the recorded times shall be the same". In our COM it's in Section 4.18. I suspect most COM's have this statement or something similar since most COM's originate from the Template TC used to issue to all operators. We are aware of several operators who have had manuals approved with policies that differ from this, however we have not been able to amend ours.

We have been discussing this with TC for several years in an effort to remove this statement and useed GAPL 2005-02 as supporting documentation to put pressure on TC to remove the statement. It took quite some time to receive a response, but we were advised on August 16th of the following:

Errors in processing occurred when GAPL 2005-2 was cancelled in 2009. The document was not properly removed from the web and not included in the cancelled GAPL list. These errors lead to the circulation of erroneous information about the Policy Letter validity. The links below illustrate the corrections.

 

GAPL 2005-2 is no longer valid, our apologies for the confusion

 

I also wonder how this effects how pilots should log their Flight Times as it pertains to Flght/Duty Time limits. At our company pilots have always logged start to shut down on their flight duty time records; however we are considering advising pilots that Air Time should be used.

So I ask this: Are most pilots in the industry using "Air Time" in their "Flight Duty Time records"?

 

Remember, the only time this will be a significant issue is after an accident. As someone stated earlier, your insurance company and lawyers will decide what's right when deciding whether they should cover the cost of the accident.

On one hand if a pilot uses air time in his Flight Duty times he could be accused of hedging his hours and/or his fatigue could come into question; on the other if he pilot uses his time behind controls with engines running as flight time in his personal log he could be accused of "padding" or misrepresenting his hours of experience.

We have submitted a request through the Civil Aviation Incident Report System for clarification to this issue and are awaiting a response. None of the inspectors or supervisors we have questioned with regards want to comment "on the record".

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If you start up and run at 100%,flight time does not start until the A/C moves under its own power. If you fly around and land three times,for 6 minutes on the ground each time,this is subtracted from your flight time. The flight time ends when you land to shut down at the end of the flight.

So if the total time between takeoff and landing to shutdown is 1 hour,that is your flight time. That is what you Charge the customer,that is what you should get paid to fly.

 

Three landing on the ground for a total of 18 minutes(.3) would = .7 air time,that is what the aircrafts maint. is based on.

 

You cannot use air time for your flight and duty time,or it would be called "air and duty time"

 

Also,in Canada,you require 100 hrs flt time to get your lic. not air time.

 

I hope this clarifies this age old discussion.

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I'm curious how many of you work for companies that have the statement in their COM (under technical Records section in Chapter 4) that states "Flight Time and Air Time are the same for skid equipped helicopter, accordingly the recorded times shall be the same". In our COM it's in Section 4.18. I suspect most COM's have this statement or something similar since most COM's originate from the Template TC used to issue to all operators. We are aware of several operators who have had manuals approved with policies that differ from this, however we have not been able to amend ours.

We have been discussing this with TC for several years in an effort to remove this statement and useed GAPL 2005-02 as supporting documentation to put pressure on TC to remove the statement. It took quite some time to receive a response, but we were advised on August 16th of the following:

Errors in processing occurred when GAPL 2005-2 was cancelled in 2009. The document was not properly removed from the web and not included in the cancelled GAPL list. These errors lead to the circulation of erroneous information about the Policy Letter validity. The links below illustrate the corrections.

 

GAPL 2005-2 is no longer valid, our apologies for the confusion

 

I also wonder how this effects how pilots should log their Flight Times as it pertains to Flght/Duty Time limits. At our company pilots have always logged start to shut down on their flight duty time records; however we are considering advising pilots that Air Time should be used.

So I ask this: Are most pilots in the industry using "Air Time" in their "Flight Duty Time records"?

 

Logging time from engine start to shutdown is not correct. It should be from when the AC first moves under it's own power(skids up) to when it lands for the purpose of shutting down(skids down) Idle time at the beginning of the fight or the end of the the flight does not count as Flt time.

Also I have had the COM thing thrown at me in the past. Remember who's responsibility it is to remain legal flight and duty time. Here's a hint,it's not the company!

For those of you who think logging air time for flight and duty time,remember. Ignorance of the law is a poor defence.

 

Never cut yourself short on safety.

Use the rules to protect yourself and your integrity.

YOU are the pilot in COMMAND!

Remember, the only time this will be a significant issue is after an accident. As someone stated earlier, your insurance company and lawyers will decide what's right when deciding whether they should cover the cost of the accident.

On one hand if a pilot uses air time in his Flight Duty times he could be accused of hedging his hours and/or his fatigue could come into question; on the other if he pilot uses his time behind controls with engines running as flight time in his personal log he could be accused of "padding" or misrepresenting his hours of experience.

We have submitted a request through the Civil Aviation Incident Report System for clarification to this issue and are awaiting a response. None of the inspectors or supervisors we have questioned with regards want to comment "on the record".

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Logging time from engine start to shutdown is not correct. It should be from when the AC first moves under it's own power(skids up) to when it lands for the purpose of shutting down(skids down) Idle time at the beginning of the fight or the end of the the flight does not count as Flt time.

Also I have had the COM thing thrown at me in the past. Remember who's responsibility it is to remain legal flight and duty time. Here's a hint,it's not the company!

For those of you who think logging air time for flight and duty time,remember. Ignorance of the law is a poor defence.

 

Never cut yourself short on safety.

Use the rules to protect yourself and your integrity.

YOU are the pilot in COMMAND!

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Thank You very much for your insight into this matter Coastlogr. My opinion (along with most pilots I have discussed this with) is actually the same as yours.This is what we have been saying to our inspectors for years. This, however is not what we are hearing from TC. They are firm in there responses (various levels) that Flight Time is the same as Air Time for skid equipped helicopters. Why do you think they cancelled the Policy Letter?

Your explanation of calculating Flight Time vs Air Time is what I think most of us really beleive...I know this is the way most of our pilots have been calculating times (including myself). I am familiar with the CARs definitions and also realize that your absolutely right about Flight Time commencing when the aircraft moves under it's own power. I apologize for the confusion; I was simply trying to be brief and the wording of GAPL 2005-02 is that Flight Time shall commence the moment a helicopters rotor's start turning...

 

Just to clarify, we are not asking our pilots to use air time in their flight duty times, but are waiting for clarification from TC on the matter. To be honest with you I think it's absurd. Many jobs have high a frequency of landings to unprepared sites and require the pilot sit at the controls (with the engine at 100%/while in contact with the earth's surface). In many cases the pilot is required at the controls to ensure the aircraft remains upright. The end result could be a significant difference between Flight Time (as you describe) and Air Time.This time should go towards his flight duty times as well as personal log.

 

The issue here is indeed the COM statement and Transport Canada's interpretation. If what you are saying below is correct then in all actuality Flight Time is not the same as Air Time. Are you suggesting that a pilot should log Air Time in his personal log and flight time (as you discussed in your calculations) in his flight duty times?

You are also right with regards to the pilot being responsible for his flight/duty times records and remaining legal. It is also worth noting that pilots are legally bound to abide what is written in their COM as well. Also the COM is stamped and approved by TC (that it is a valid interpretation of the regulations). The pilot and company could face reprimand for not following policies as set out in the COM.

 

Another question worth asking is how this relates to Training Records. Our COM also states that Pilots require 1.0 hour Air Time for Initial Flight Training; but 1.0 hours Flight Time for recurrent Training.

Let's consider a hypothetical training flight that lasts 1.2 hours, the aircraft is in contact with the earth's surface for 0.3 hours (pilot briefings between manoevers, sloped landings etc.). The pilots return to base and realize that the Air Time counter on the machine has logged 0.9 hours. Is this flight of sufficient length to meet the recurrent training standard in the COM? TC says no...flight time is the same as air time for skid equipped helicopters.

 

"Flight Time" is the term used throughout the CARs and our COM for all of these issues and TC has informed us on several occasions that Flight Time is the Same as Air Time. They are adament, there is no room for discussion on this topic. This interpretation has direct implications to each these discussions.

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Should have kept my mouth shut and had a little patience: Coast Logger and Free Wheel, thankyou for typing in alot more specifically and accurately what I wished to say but failed. Well said.

 

Zazu

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If you fly around and land three times,for 6 minutes on the ground each time,this is subtracted from your flight time.

 

I think you meant to say, 'subtracted from your air time', right?

 

With the above correction I agree entirely with your argument.

 

C

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Its very simple why is everyone including transport Canada making it confusing..

 

Flight time starts when you hit the starter and the blades start to turn,,you are now in control of an operational helicopter. The flight ends when you turn engine off on the ground and the blades are costing to a stop.

 

Air time is the time you are in the air,,,skids or wheels up to skids or wheels down. If you are doing a toe in you are holding power and thus still flying. If you are sitting on the ground at 100% waiting for 6 min for customers to load or unload you are not flying and thus would/should subtract a .1 from your air time.

 

Bill the customer Flight time,and log it as such , the log book shows AIR time and that is what is used to determine the life of components. (It is the time they are under Stress ) The customer and your personal log book should always be billed and recorded on the FLIGHT time number.

The difference between flight and air time goes to the benefit of the operator to recover his low rate on the contract against his operational costs. Except if you are Helisking where the ******** demand to be billed on AIR time,,but that is another subject.

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