Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Iceman]

"Sure, use air-time for A/F time, but if the client is paying for it I will be logging it."

Really...

 

So what your saying is a good few hundred hours of your 20k is actually with the skids on the ground twiddling your thumbs.

[J Kupecz]

I had thought that if the machine is in operation, and you are PIC, you are working. If the machine is running there should be no twiddling of thumbs. You will be the one responsable if there is a problem, as in the collective jumping up during a hydraulics check (as a recent example). If you are working, you should be getting credit and paid for it.

 

Or am I missing something?

[coastdog]

Been flying the 407 this summer. For those of you not familiar, it's equipped with a squat switch on the gear and records actual air time. This is what I put in the ship's log. Easy. I also make a note of my time off and my time down at the end of the flight and this figure is billed to the client and put in my personal log. When I'm loading crews hot in the field or any other activity where the machine is required to be running, that's "flight time". I will make exceptions to this if I think it's unfair to the client (really). At the end of the day the difference between the two numbers is not that great. My current client is aware of this with no objections. We also charge a per hour fuel rate, so it would unfair to the operator not to charge flight time (imagine the invoice - 4.7 hours flying but fuel charge based on 5.1 hours ... ? I also feel no guilt in personal logging of flight time. If I'm at the stick and the machine is running - I'm working.

[Iceman]

"When I'm loading crews hot in the field or any other activity where the machine is required to be running, that's "flight time". I will make exceptions to this if I think it's unfair to the client (really). At the end of the day the difference between the two numbers is not that great. My current client is aware of this with no objections. We also charge a per hour fuel rate, so it would unfair to the operator not to charge flight time (imagine the invoice - 4.7 hours flying but fuel charge based on 5.1 hours ... ?"

 

That is a no brainer and fairly standard for the industry. At the end of the day what I enter in the aircraft journey log book is what I record as PIC for my records. Which should be pretty close to what you actually flew.

 

How you do it makes no difference to me, though.

[Brock_Landers]

this also raises the question about what columns does your A/C journey log book have. The previous company i flew for had 2 time columns. A airtime column and a flight time column, so it was easy to run the maintenance schedule off of the airtime and bill customers and log personal hours off of the flight time.

 

My current employer only has an airtime column in their journey log books. So if I log flight time in my personal log book and my logbook gets audited by TC for whatever reason then I will have trouble explaining my hours when there is no other record of those hours in the JLB. Only airtime hours.

[helidriver68]

well its pretty much always been an industry standard at any of the 15 companies Ive worked at over my lengthy career of over 25 years that rotors turning the meters running ,thats flight time , air time is skids up to skids down always has been always should be .

why do people have to make a mountain out of a ant hill .

and as far as logging the flight time in your personal book ya go ahead it may mean getting that next job and meeting the customers min hours of requirements ,

but be warned a good employer will look at that and decide hire or not hire , put on this job or put on that job .

..... example say your working for example not to centre any company or individual out .so dont read more into this than an example

....if

pilot A is flying pipeline patrols for 3000hrs,,,

pilot B tour rides for 3000 hours ,,

pilot C 3000 hours oil patch work reading meters up /down , up /down in air for 10 min ,on the ground for 10 min,

pilot D 1000 hours of what ever to get it and then 600 hours of fighting fires , moving surveyors ,

in my opinion and experience ...pilot D will be the first choice in hiring ,

so when looking for a job and deciding what your future holds look ahead , plan ahead , do you wish to be a bush pilot , a taxi driver (tours) (sched service mainland to island )specialty pilot ? longline percision driver,

 

think of your lives , families, benifits,? schedules? rotations ? wages ? peanuts or $$$$ dollars , domestic or international ,, full time or seasonal ? contract?

[helidriver68]

18 speed ? any comments ?

-airtime in journey log

-flight time in flight report books ,

if rotors turning its costing $$$ to the operator , that should be pasted on to the customer.

most companies run the 2 line journey logs with flight time ,air time .

[Skidbiter]

This is always a can of worms.

 

It depends on who you work for and what country you work in, as it has been said before, I couldn't care less what the next guy wants to write in his log book, but I have always used air time in mine, mainly because thats what is done in the country I trained in, and the CAA would check your log book hours off against the aircraft tech log hours at audit time, so if you logged all the hours you sat on the ground either loading people, spray, fueling or what ever, it wouldn't match up, then you would have some explaining to do!

And to those who are about to say there isn't much difference between Air time and flight time, I disagree, in a year I have had up to about 300 hours difference at times, but as I say, don't care what others do, thats just how I do it, just adding my 2c worth.

[Skids Up]

So if I log flight time in my personal log book and my logbook gets audited by TC...

 

Curious as to if anyone has ever had this happen. 34 years of 'experience' (either on the ground, in the air or somewhere in between) and never have had mine checked or have heard of any else being checked.

 

If you want to know how much this matters, just try and go back and check your own logbook against the A/C (logbooks) that you have flown.

 

Think that would come under the heading of "good luck with that!" column.

 

However, IF you try and pad books for someones gain, then there might be issues.

 

But the season is winding down and so we will beat this up again... while waiting for next year so we can do it again.

[Bif]

Just to chime in...

 

The company I'm working for bills their long-term oil&gas contract client on air time alone. On numerous occasions, I've spent 6-8 hours in a running machine only to log (and bill) less than 3 hours of air time. There's an unwritten rule (as I'm sure is similar with most oil&gas work) that if the guys think they'll be less than 20-30 min, we'll leave the machine running, and if they think it'll be longer then we shut down. Of course, time is a very subjective concept, as are those "rules" and I've often been running for 40min or more before tracking down the operator to find out a) it's gonna be a while and he just didn't bother to tell me, or it'll only be 10-5 more minutes so can you stay running?

 

You can bet I'd LOVE to log all that time, not to mention get paid for it, but I hardly think it reflects well on me to have 100+ hrs in my personal log book that was spent on the ground, at idle, reading a book with the frictions on!