Asrd

[Helilog56]

The point I was trying to get to is on the major fire complexs, multi aircraft, super high stress....maybe thats not the place to be "learning to longline"... In those scenarios, I want the competent,experienced pilots who have all the skills...ONES WHO CAN HANDLE THE STRESS AND CHAOS...

 

Stress and chaos....seriously ???????

[pilot5]

The point I was trying to get to is on the major fire complexs, multi aircraft, super high stress....maybe thats not the place to be "learning to longline"... In those scenarios, I want the competent,experienced pilots who have all the skills...ONES WHO CAN HANDLE THE STRESS AND CHAOS...

 

 

Rocksteady! 30years, I wonder how many good people, families,and careers you have destroyed whilst conveying your self appointed aviation expertise. If you want to have an opinion of pilot performance based on experience go get a license and 20 years of PIC then your opinion will be warranted.

 

As I have mentioned more than once I understand the inate requirement for everybody to feel important and if ratting out people drives your sense of importance and promotion then you fit the model of the typical forestry official that should leave the flying and associated saftey to those who are trained to do the job. We wont tell you how to use your hose and polaski??

 

Even in 2006 I had 3500hrs putting out fire Canada wide. For the most part the pilots even on big fires dont experienece stress and caos you describe. I will say though, that having a know it all provincial ladder climber who you know will rat you out and is constantly picking the flyshiit out the the pepper at every turn- this will will affect pilot performance and increase the stress level.

 

P5

[helicopterjim]

You pilots, as professionals, also need to step up to the plate to get the way-sub-par pilots ousted from the fires....

 

Great idea! A bunch of pilots will all get together and make sure that some good pilots are ousted because they could make the others look bad. Then they can run the fire and maybe even get the forestry personnel ousted that they don't like! Sounds like a great idea for everyone - except the professionals!

[Auto Relight]

The point I was trying to get to is on the major fire complexs, multi aircraft, super high stress....maybe thats not the place to be "learning to longline"... In those scenarios, I want the competent,experienced pilots who have all the skills...ONES WHO CAN HANDLE THE STRESS AND CHAOS...

 

 

This is exactly the attitude I was referring to in the OP.

 

30yrs you say? Of what, exactly, I'm curious?

 

Because if you had any idea what you are talking about the above quote would never have come off your keyboard. You seem to be overstating your experience somewhat, as I know a great many of the now retired BCFS personnel who actually had 30yrs in and developed a pretty good understanding of what works and what doesn't, where the lines are between running a fire and running a helicopter. I'm afraid your posts smack of a lack of experience and/or over-confidence in your knowledge of operational flying. Just enough information to be dangerous.

 

FYI, flying fires - while enormously frustrating at times - is where many of us put ourselves out to pasture after considerable time doing jobs that are infinitely more "Chaotic," and "Stressful," not to mention more skilled, and certainly more demanding and taxing on the body. I would suggest your opinion of what flying on fires is like has been borne of lack of exposure to other areas of our industry, fair enough. Moving seismic drills in the mountains, setting towers in the mountains, heli-skiing in some places (particularly in the mediums), moving diamond drills in the mountains, setting power poles in a production type environment, logging on the coast, Class D mountain rescue, to name but a few of the applications I can tell you require an infinitely steadier hand and cooler head than dumping a bit of water on some burning trees in the middle of nowhere.

 

Is there a problem with pilots and by extension some of the companies employed by the various forest services? Yes, absolutely as not all are created equal. Where this industry has gone in the last 15-20yrs disgusts me on a number of levels with some world-class scoundrels running various outfits, but it is most certainly NOT up to the customer to fix it - this has become patently obvious in the last 10yrs with misinformed people/insurance companies/Forest Services/consultants instituting frivolous rules, requirements, and regulations that have little to do with real safety. Many, or most, of these changes do little to ensure a safe operating environment because those making the rules have no idea what they are talking about and in many cases the optics of safety is more important than safety itself. We should be raising the bar, not catering to the lowest common denominator as we currently do with fix-all's like SMS that simply is a tool to transfer liability with no real oversight.

 

This industry is in a race to the bottom (with a few notable exceptions), we all know it, and yet nothing is done to ensure positive change. HAC is total joke, with some of the worst outfits in the industry represented on the Board over the years, the pilots have never been organized in any way, shape or form, and never will be, and the Government in the form of Transport Canada has totally checked out of its role of oversight. It is not surprising we are seeing issues on our side of the equation.

 

When it comes to fires, we are all on the same team - breaking news, I know. I simply do not understand the acrimony on display between the agencies and the aviation companies. Arrogance, ignorance, and ambivalence on both sides are responsible. I do not wish to lay sole blame at the feet of the various government agencies, as that would be an inaccurate representation of the issue, but, the general attitude of the forest services from ASRD, to OMR, to BCFS, has deteriorated over the last several years to a point I am beginning to find unacceptable. People are getting hurt, and there is a reason for it.

 

I understand a large number of people in the various agencies read this board, and I implore you to check your egos at the door, start realizing we all have the same goals at heart, and there needs to be serious consultation between industry and government to improve the current situation. We need to clean up a great number of outfits supplying machines to the fire agencies, and we need to have the agencies understand that there are some very experienced, very capable, and very level headed people flying on fires who can help with educating forest service personnel. I can't remember the last time an IC came to a group of pilots and asked for operational advice - that used to happen.

 

I have ignored this thread for a while since the language hijack, but felt it necessary to weigh in again.

 

AR

[Helilog56]

This is exactly the attitude I was referring to in the OP.

 

30yrs you say? Of what, exactly, I'm curious?

 

Because if you had any idea what you are talking about the above quote would never have come off your keyboard. You seem to be overstating your experience somewhat, as I know a great many of the now retired BCFS personnel who actually had 30yrs in and developed a pretty good understanding of what works and what doesn't, where the lines are between running a fire and running a helicopter. I'm afraid your posts smack of a lack of experience and/or over-confidence in your knowledge of operational flying. Just enough information to be dangerous.

 

FYI, flying fires - while enormously frustrating at times - is where many of us put ourselves out to pasture after considerable time doing jobs that are infinitely more "Chaotic," and "Stressful," not to mention more skilled, and certainly more demanding and taxing on the body. I would suggest your opinion of what flying on fires is like has been borne of lack of exposure to other areas of our industry, fair enough. Moving seismic drills in the mountains, setting towers in the mountains, heli-skiing in some places (particularly in the mediums), moving diamond drills in the mountains, setting power poles in a production type environment, logging on the coast, Class D mountain rescue, to name but a few of the applications I can tell you require an infinitely steadier hand and cooler head than dumping a bit of water on some burning trees in the middle of nowhere.

 

Is there a problem with pilots and by extension some of the companies employed by the various forest services? Yes, absolutely as not all are created equal. Where this industry has gone in the last 15-20yrs disgusts me on a number of levels with some world-class scoundrels running various outfits, but it is most certainly NOT up to the customer to fix it - this has become patently obvious in the last 10yrs with misinformed people/insurance companies/Forest Services/consultants instituting frivolous rules, requirements, and regulations that have little to do with real safety. Many, or most, of these changes do little to ensure a safe operating environment because those making the rules have no idea what they are talking about and in many cases the optics of safety is more important than safety itself. We should be raising the bar, not catering to the lowest common denominator as we currently do with fix-all's like SMS that simply is a tool to transfer liability with no real oversight.

 

This industry is in a race to the bottom (with a few notable exceptions), we all know it, and yet nothing is done to ensure positive change. HAC is total joke, with some of the worst outfits in the industry represented on the Board over the years, the pilots have never been organized in any way, shape or form, and never will be, and the Government in the form of Transport Canada has totally checked out of its role of oversight. It is not surprising we are seeing issues on our side of the equation.

 

When it comes to fires, we are all on the same team - breaking news, I know. I simply do not understand the acrimony on display between the agencies and the aviation companies. Arrogance, ignorance, and ambivalence on both sides are responsible. I do not wish to lay sole blame at the feet of the various government agencies, as that would be an inaccurate representation of the issue, but, the general attitude of the forest services from ASRD, to OMR, to BCFS, has deteriorated over the last several years to a point I am beginning to find unacceptable. People are getting hurt, and there is a reason for it.

 

I understand a large number of people in the various agencies read this board, and I implore you to check your egos at the door, start realizing we all have the same goals at heart, and there needs to be serious consultation between industry and government to improve the current situation. We need to clean up a great number of outfits supplying machines to the fire agencies, and we need to have the agencies understand that there are some very experienced, very capable, and very level headed people flying on fires who can help with educating forest service personnel. I can't remember the last time an IC came to a group of pilots and asked for operational advice - that used to happen.

 

I have ignored this thread for a while since the language hijack, but felt it necessary to weigh in again.

 

AR

 

:up: :up:

[splitpin]

This is exactly the attitude I was referring to in the OP.

 

30yrs you say? Of what, exactly, I'm curious?

 

Because if you had any idea what you are talking about the above quote would never have come off your keyboard. You seem to be overstating your experience somewhat, as I know a great many of the now retired BCFS personnel who actually had 30yrs in and developed a pretty good understanding of what works and what doesn't, where the lines are between running a fire and running a helicopter. I'm afraid your posts smack of a lack of experience and/or over-confidence in your knowledge of operational flying. Just enough information to be dangerous.

 

FYI, flying fires - while enormously frustrating at times - is where many of us put ourselves out to pasture after considerable time doing jobs that are infinitely more "Chaotic," and "Stressful," not to mention more skilled, and certainly more demanding and taxing on the body. I would suggest your opinion of what flying on fires is like has been borne of lack of exposure to other areas of our industry, fair enough. Moving seismic drills in the mountains, setting towers in the mountains, heli-skiing in some places (particularly in the mediums), moving diamond drills in the mountains, setting power poles in a production type environment, logging on the coast, Class D mountain rescue, to name but a few of the applications I can tell you require an infinitely steadier hand and cooler head than dumping a bit of water on some burning trees in the middle of nowhere.

 

Is there a problem with pilots and by extension some of the companies employed by the various forest services? Yes, absolutely as not all are created equal. Where this industry has gone in the last 15-20yrs disgusts me on a number of levels with some world-class scoundrels running various outfits, but it is most certainly NOT up to the customer to fix it - this has become patently obvious in the last 10yrs with misinformed people/insurance companies/Forest Services/consultants instituting frivolous rules, requirements, and regulations that have little to do with real safety. Many, or most, of these changes do little to ensure a safe operating environment because those making the rules have no idea what they are talking about and in many cases the optics of safety is more important than safety itself. We should be raising the bar, not catering to the lowest common denominator as we currently do with fix-all's like SMS that simply is a tool to transfer liability with no real oversight.

 

This industry is in a race to the bottom (with a few notable exceptions), we all know it, and yet nothing is done to ensure positive change. HAC is total joke, with some of the worst outfits in the industry represented on the Board over the years, the pilots have never been organized in any way, shape or form, and never will be, and the Government in the form of Transport Canada has totally checked out of its role of oversight. It is not surprising we are seeing issues on our side of the equation.

 

When it comes to fires, we are all on the same team - breaking news, I know. I simply do not understand the acrimony on display between the agencies and the aviation companies. Arrogance, ignorance, and ambivalence on both sides are responsible. I do not wish to lay sole blame at the feet of the various government agencies, as that would be an inaccurate representation of the issue, but, the general attitude of the forest services from ASRD, to OMR, to BCFS, has deteriorated over the last several years to a point I am beginning to find unacceptable. People are getting hurt, and there is a reason for it.

 

I understand a large number of people in the various agencies read this board, and I implore you to check your egos at the door, start realizing we all have the same goals at heart, and there needs to be serious consultation between industry and government to improve the current situation. We need to clean up a great number of outfits supplying machines to the fire agencies, and we need to have the agencies understand that there are some very experienced, very capable, and very level headed people flying on fires who can help with educating forest service personnel. I can't remember the last time an IC came to a group of pilots and asked for operational advice - that used to happen.

 

I have ignored this thread for a while since the language hijack, but felt it necessary to weigh in again.

 

AR

 

Once again AR you have you have cut to the chase and said it how it is!! We need more like you on this site.

One small thing I have noticed about forestry types across the country is that when they make a decision no matter how small, the first thing they consider is how is that decision going to make them look in the eyes of the bosses and can that decision have in any way a negative impact on his/hers career. And above all "cover your arse" no matter who you have to stab in the back to do it. Fellow co-worker, some poor unsuspecting Pilot, your Mother, no matter. Their first job is to climb that frikken ladder!

Hmmmm--having just read my post I realized that pretty much covers all simple servants and most employees in general and in particular, a lot of my former co-workers. Pilots, Enginners and employers. (you know who you are, and so do I)

Just remember folks that when you get shafted in this industry (and trust me, it WILL happen), revenge is best whan eaten cold. I hope like H-ll you win your case P5 and make sure you rub all the concerned noses in IT!!

Sorry, bit of a rant and thread drift there, just deal with it.

 

PS--as far as rocksteady goes, I'm 99.99% sure I know who it is. Apply all of the above with caution.

[rocksteady]

Since you think you kow who I am splitpin, let's take it to PM's so I can discuss.....Since you ar cautioning all to "apply with caution gets me a little pissed...

[Helilog56]

Since you think you kow who I am splitpin, let's take it to PM's so I can discuss.....Since you ar cautioning all to "apply with caution gets me a little pissed...

 

 

 

 

Seriously.....something as trivial as splitty's statement on an anonomous forum gets you "pissed"??

Perhaps some counselling or anger management will help? As a taxpayer in B.C. I think it would be money well spent!

[pilot5]

Seriously.....something as trivial as splitty's statement on an anonomous forum gets you "pissed"??

Perhaps some counselling or anger management will help? As a taxpayer in B.C. I think it would be money well spent!

 

Ya! An I bet ya dude has it 80% covered on his provincial Health benefits plan!

 

P5

[twinstar_ca]

keep the sticks on the ice, gang...