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coolhand110

Chc Global Helicopter Pilots Unionize

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Perhaps this is a good thing... :wacko:

 

After all it has worked well for the auto workers.

 

Let's bump every pilot, regardless of ability and skills up to at least $250,000 a year, only allow then to work 6 months, (thereby spreading the wealth, but costing the employer $500,000 a year to crew the machine) and then when we look around and say "where is all the work?" we can get in line for the big government bailout train. :up:

 

Win win all around.

 

Seriously, \

 

It it works and both sides can survive it, maybe it is good. But usually when the union says were here to protect our members, they are not usually thinking about the other side.

 

My 2 cents. Never have worked in a union, hope I never do. I have been in this industry for a total of almost 40 years, wrenching and flying - Have never had to take a pay cut yet... It may happen, but so far so good. :prop:

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For those of you who have made it to this point in your flying career (what ever point that may be) without feeling intimidated or fearful that you would loose your job i would have to say, wow! How funny that this thread has started on Vertical for only a few days ago i sat with a 2X,000+ hour pilot and he told me how just recently an employer of his tried to pressure him into flying for free. He held his ground and the ops manager eventually gave way but this only exemplifies the mindset of the industry, if people of his experience level are being pressured, what chance does a low hour pilot have?

 

What is truly the problem? Aside from the few "bad apples" who seem to get their joy out of taking the last shred of dignity away from someone who is already totally at their mercy, i think the biggest problem is the undercutting of rates that has swept clean through the industry. How can a company pay a decent wage, do acceptable maintenance or build infrastructure if they are only creating enough cash flow to service their debt?

 

Could a union together with Regulation create a level playing field where each type would be charged out at a specific rate based on job, crew, location, etc.. Too complicated? Would it work? Is what we have now working with everyone limping along just waiting for the bank to call? Who's happy? The owners? The employees? Bringing regulation back to the industry might be the way to go (for both the companies AND the employees) so that there is some stability and protection. Protection for BOTH, employees would be protected against flying for free and extended tours etc. and companies would be protected against tariff wars with each other and those STUPID hour requirements that you have to pay a what amounts to a bribe to a consulting company to be "approved" to fly for anything petroleum related, also to being held hostage by unscrupulous pilots when things are really rocking. In my perfect world things would be fair, when times are good, there is more and when times are bad we all get a little less. Of course this would mean that everyone has to be honest and that's not likely going to happen and i am not a fan of government being invloved in private enterprise.

 

Lots of people making good points, both for and against and as i too have worked as an employer, a non-union employee and a union employee so i have seen it from all sides. I have also seen the watering down of rates by new people coming into my old business and how everyone suffered, trying to survive yet another entry level reduction of rates. Something has to give, how many corners are there left to cut?

 

HB, M1/2Wife and Plumber i see your side of the argument about unions, that they give a safe haven to those who would slack off and ride the coat tails of others but i see this happening in our industry without a union already. How many of you have worked your tails off and noticed always the same people ducking out when there was something to be done, there are already enough rotten apples in our midst and there is no union is sight, everything from terrible bosses to "managers" who's only attribute is selling out employees to back stabbing co-workers who think nothing of hurting others to get ahead themselves. I have in the past worked for a union and am no slacker and have never stolen from an employer. Those who would be lazy or do their job at half speed would do that regardless of a union, it's just in them. There would have to be some clause or mechanism to protect from this kind of abuse. As someone said the pendulum swings, does it have to go back the other way completly? So what, we form a union and bleed the employers to teach them a lesson? There has to be a middle ground or there will be no companies, pilots, engineers or jobs for anyone.

 

But there is hope, for there are people in this industry, owners, managers and employees who care and are good people who don't like to see others hurt and taken advantage of. The formation of a union of both sides (no that doesn't have to be an oxymoron) is something to strive for because you can't have one side without the other.

 

Just a few random thoughts.......

 

 

An extremely well thought-out post L3! I can sympathize with all the concerns being brought forward as a result of this thread, and I strongly agree that this union must conduct itself in the most professional manner when dealing with CHC. I just hope that the company has the same approach to a collective bargaining agreement (emphasis on agreement)!

 

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For those of you who have made it to this point in your flying career (what ever point that may be) without feeling intimidated or fearful that you would loose your job i would have to say, wow! How funny that this thread has started on Vertical for only a few days ago i sat with a 2X,000+ hour pilot and he told me how just recently an employer of his tried to pressure him into flying for free. He held his ground and the ops manager eventually gave way but this only exemplifies the mindset of the industry, if people of his experience level are being pressured, what chance does a low hour pilot have?

 

What is truly the problem? Aside from the few "bad apples" who seem to get their joy out of taking the last shred of dignity away from someone who is already totally at their mercy, i think the biggest problem is the undercutting of rates that has swept clean through the industry. How can a company pay a decent wage, do acceptable maintenance or build infrastructure if they are only creating enough cash flow to service their debt?

 

Could a union together with Regulation create a level playing field where each type would be charged out at a specific rate based on job, crew, location, etc.. Too complicated? Would it work? Is what we have now working with everyone limping along just waiting for the bank to call? Who's happy? The owners? The employees? Bringing regulation back to the industry might be the way to go (for both the companies AND the employees) so that there is some stability and protection. Protection for BOTH, employees would be protected against flying for free and extended tours etc. and companies would be protected against tariff wars with each other and those STUPID hour requirements that you have to pay a what amounts to a bribe to a consulting company to be "approved" to fly for anything petroleum related, also to being held hostage by unscrupulous pilots when things are really rocking. In my perfect world things would be fair, when times are good, there is more and when times are bad we all get a little less. Of course this would mean that everyone has to be honest and that's not likely going to happen and i am not a fan of government being invloved in private enterprise.

 

Lots of people making good points, both for and against and as i too have worked as an employer, a non-union employee and a union employee so i have seen it from all sides. I have also seen the watering down of rates by new people coming into my old business and how everyone suffered, trying to survive yet another entry level reduction of rates. Something has to give, how many corners are there left to cut?

 

HB, M1/2Wife and Plumber i see your side of the argument about unions, that they give a safe haven to those who would slack off and ride the coat tails of others but i see this happening in our industry without a union already. How many of you have worked your tails off and noticed always the same people ducking out when there was something to be done, there are already enough rotten apples in our midst and there is no union is sight, everything from terrible bosses to "managers" who's only attribute is selling out employees to back stabbing co-workers who think nothing of hurting others to get ahead themselves. I have in the past worked for a union and am no slacker and have never stolen from an employer. Those who would be lazy or do their job at half speed would do that regardless of a union, it's just in them. There would have to be some clause or mechanism to protect from this kind of abuse. As someone said the pendulum swings, does it have to go back the other way completly? So what, we form a union and bleed the employers to teach them a lesson? There has to be a middle ground or there will be no companies, pilots, engineers or jobs for anyone.

 

But there is hope, for there are people in this industry, owners, managers and employees who care and are good people who don't like to see others hurt and taken advantage of. The formation of a union of both sides (no that doesn't have to be an oxymoron) is something to strive for because you can't have one side without the other.

 

Just a few random thoughts.......

 

Thanks for posting this, L3driver. I bet you'd be a pretty great employer.

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Guest plumber
An extremely well thought-out post L3! I can sympathize with all the concerns being brought forward as a result of this thread, and I strongly agree that this union must conduct itself in the most professional manner when dealing with CHC. I just hope that the company has the same approach to a collective bargaining agreement (emphasis on agreement)!

 

I hope you guys are right, don't get me wrong a strong support unit would be nice I'm just giving my 2 bits on my experience with unions. When times get tough in the economy the union shop doors are the first to close.

 

Only 2 saw mills in my area out of 6 still open both non union, I'd rather be making $20 an hour than $0 an hour but I have never been real good at math :o

 

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Hello-bird,OK than! ;) Plumber,what this association should do is not comparable with say..constuction workers union from New York,entangled and controlled by the Mafia.No,and should not be operated as a bussines for profit.Regional union stuarts could adress issues while still working as a pilot or engineer.There should be no "Union Executives",just representatives working by a constitution aprouved ,amended and respected by all members.Maybe the "controversial"HEPAC would of got many more members and much more money to operate with if they faced up to the need and not take the ideea of a union out of the question right from the start.I think they acted by the self preservation instinct so present in this line of work and denied to even consider this even if deep down they knew what was needed.Or maybe they were just waiting for the majority to bring the subject on.Elan Head,again ,put this subject to a poll and the results will clear the air a bit.

 

Alphadog/Boomer:

 

First off, I wish you well in your union environment.

 

"Maybe the "controversial"HEPAC would of got many more members and much more money to operate with if they faced up to the need and not take the idea of a union out of the question right from the start."

 

Under the regulations of a Not For Profit Association, you are not allowed to form a union. But, using ones noggin, if you have a large assoc., you have the power.

 

I personally believe in negotiation rather than the union perspective of confrontation.

 

Everybody is in this to make a buck, owners and employees and their has to be a give and take.

 

Wishing you well,

 

Cheers, Don

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What is truly the problem? Aside from the few "bad apples" who seem to get their joy out of taking the last shred of dignity away from someone who is already totally at their mercy

 

How many of you have worked your tails off and noticed always the same people ducking out when there was something to be done, there are already enough rotten apples in our midst and there is no union is sight, everything from terrible bosses to "managers" who's only attribute is selling out employees to back stabbing co-workers who think nothing of hurting others to get ahead themselves.

 

I always though it was small man syndrome that inspired this type of behaviour at the work place, I may be wrong. :huh:

 

I suppose some folks L3 thrive on this type of environment, I do not! It is not in my constitution to deal with these types of individuals. For a person such as myself who works hard, and just want to be left alone to do my job with out the fear of these things you mention a union is a good idea. I am not lazy and work hard.

 

I know this feeling of loss of dignity all too well. I am sad when I hear of people that go through the same thing, I can understand the frustration that comes along with it. To ad insult to injury, then there's the coverup and denial that this behavior exists at all. :rolleyes:

 

Its hard especially when all you want to do is work earn a half decent living and be left alone.

 

I cringe when the word "professional" is used to describe some of the participants in this industry.

 

HF

 

 

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L3,good post!Well said!Black M,an association that has no legal leverage could make the voice of the members heard but not LISTENED to.We have to add persuasion to the name of the game or we will be ignored somethimes politely ,somethimes just plain rude.And there is nothing we can do as individuals besides waking away from ***** deals and risking not beeing able to find other employment because you are to "militant" and have the guts to stand up for self.I have heard of many that had their career brought to a halt due to "talk between managers"that did not reflect reality and in fact it was slander wich is punishble by law.Not many have the resources both mental and financial to fight such a thing.In fact,most of employers,taken as a total act as "union "for themselves.Thy set rates and standards that will tacitly be accepted by all and seriously undercut by some because the mins are left to everyones discretion.

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L3,good post!Well said!Black M,an association that has no legal leverage could make the voice of the members heard but not LISTENED to.We have to add persuasion to the name of the game or we will be ignored somethimes politely ,somethimes just plain rude.And there is nothing we can do as individuals besides waking away from ***** deals and risking not beeing able to find other employment because you are to "militant" and have the guts to stand up for self.I have heard of many that had their career brought to a halt due to "talk between managers"that did not reflect reality and in fact it was slander wich is punishble by law.Not many have the resources both mental and financial to fight such a thing.In fact,most of employers,taken as a total act as "union "for themselves.Thy set rates and standards that will tacitly be accepted by all and seriously undercut by some because the mins are left to everyones discretion.

 

 

Wow! Hit the nail on the head there! :o

 

But really I am still convinced the main problem is as follows:

 

And now for a short musical explanation courtesy of Happyfeet!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

 

 

 

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