Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Freewheel]

Why don't you file a CAIRS report asking for clarification if you are so certain. sure it'll likely take years to get an answer (as it did for us), but it could be entertaining as he##! I wouldn't be surprised if another person at TC agreed with you. be warned, they'll give you the royal runaround (I think it's part of their initial training)

[Freewheel]

Generally speaking Transport Canada inspectors are not good "business" people. That's likely why they don't see the big picture. I can only assume the inspectors who made our findings thought we were trying cut training costs. Fact is, the cost of a 0.1 of air time on a pilots training record, pales in comparison to the increased costs having more pilots and crew changes. If I hire just 1 extra pilot, my trading costs go up way more than the cost of 0.1 air time. Whether a pilot receives 0.9 air time or 1.0 air time training is also trivial (and low risk in my opinion).

The problem here is the inspector feels has no way of enforcing training standards...not my problem.

[MEOB]

You guys are over thinking the s#@$ out of this! Now we have risk dragged into recording time!? How the **** do you guys get through your day with this kind of stuff going through your mind and still stay focused on what your doing. Flight time (rotors turning on the ground or in the air) goes on the ticket, in your crew position report (so you can get payed) also toward your daily/weekly/monthly/yearly times to keep transport happy. Air time (actual time in the air) is log book time for AC time, components, ect. Don't see where Transport would have a problem with that. Over all the years i've been in the industry and the audits I have seen, I have never heard TC complain. Put what you want in your personal log book. As for flight training, if your actually spending that much time on the ground to explain whats going on or whatever you may be talking about, go back to the hanger and get back in the class room. Its not going to make that much of a difference. Or, suggest to the student they should take there 50-60 grand or what ever it cost these days and pick another career because its just not working out. I look back at my training and there was no excessive time spent on the ground. If I wasn't getting it, back to the barn we went! No wonder Transport is so hard to get along with or misunderstanding if they get questioned on stupid crap like this. Maybe i'm missing something but seemed pretty simple to me since I've been flying/training.

[Freewheel]

 

 

News Release Transport Canada

 

 

Government of Canada introduces changes to pilot licensing

 

 

February 12, 2014 – Ottawa – Transport Canada

 

The Honourable Lisa Raitt today announced amendments to the Canadian Aviation Regulations which will set the groundwork for the introduction of the Multi-crew Pilot Licence (MPL), extend the validity period of medical certificates associated with certain pilot licences and modify the requirements regarding credits of co-pilot flight time.

 

Industry groups, including training organizations, pilot associations, unions and operator associations, have widely supported these regulatory amendments, which bring Canada in line with international standards.

 

The amendments were published in the Canada Gazette, Part I in February 2013, followed by a 30 day public consultation period. The final regulations were published in Canada Gazette II today and come into force 60 days from today.

 

Quick Facts

•

The regulatory amendments introducing the MPL are the first step toward establishing the MPL in Canada. The next step is updating certification standards for approved training organizations (ATO) intending to deliver MPL training.

 

•

MPL training is an innovative and structured competency-based program, specifically designed to develop the skills and knowledge required to become an airline co-pilot.

 

•

Other international civil aviation authorities, such as the United Kingdom, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, allow MPL training.

 

•

Certain pilot medical certificates will have a longer validity period in accordance with recent changes to international standards.

 

•

All experience gained as a co-pilot can now be put towards other pilot licences, making it easier for pilots to progress professionally.

 

 

Quotes

 

 

“We regularly review and modernize our regulations to ensure that they meet today’s aviation safety environment and conform to international standards and best practices. These changes are an important step forward for our pilots in Canada.”

 

The Honourable Lisa Raitt,

Minister of Transport

 

 

Are you sure about that Lisa?

[Winnie]

I guess the whole thing stems from the fact that "AIR TIME" was allowed into the COM in the first place. as is clearly stated in the definition, it is technical time, and what goes in the JOURNEY LOG BOOK, nowhere else...

 

They (TC) should stop interpreting, and go by the letter, if that is the intent, rather than three different inspectors having three different opinions.

 

As a for instance, in our training last year, it was determined that we needed to have different scenarios for different crews, makes up for a lot of extra work, and guys were not allowed to "practice" a certain flight before the ride. whereas if we were doing the rides in the aircraft all crews would end up doing the same ride twice, no special circumstances.... No logic.

 

Monitors... TC where monitoring training, with an inspector sitting behind the ACP conducting the ride... WHY??? They don't trust the ACP?

 

Sillyness.

Anyway, TC will always find a way to spend your money, and they'll never agree.

 

Cheers

H.

[Freewheel]

You guys are over thinking the s#@$ out of this! Now we have risk dragged into recording time!? How the **** do you guys get through your day with this kind of stuff going through your mind and still stay focused on what your doing. Flight time (rotors turning on the ground or in the air) goes on the ticket, in your crew position report (so you can get payed) also toward your daily/weekly/monthly/yearly times to keep transport happy. Air time (actual time in the air) is log book time for AC time, components, ect. Don't see where Transport would have a problem with that. Over all the years i've been in the industry and the audits I have seen, I have never heard TC complain. Put what you want in your personal log book. As for flight training, if your actually spending that much time on the ground to explain whats going on or whatever you may be talking about, go back to the hanger and get back in the class room. Its not going to make that much of a difference. Or, suggest to the student they should take there 50-60 grand or what ever it cost these days and pick another career because its just not working out. I look back at my training and there was no excessive time spent on the ground. If I wasn't getting it, back to the barn we went! No wonder Transport is so hard to get along with or misunderstanding if they get questioned on stupid crap like this. Maybe i'm missing something but seemed pretty simple to me since I've been flying/training.

Risk is everywhere. Most financial advisors will ask you how much risk you are willing to take before they invest your money...that is the type risk I am discussing.

 

As for Transport Canada not having issue with your logging habits over the years. Good for you. It doesn't mean that's the case for the next guy. Let me ask you this:

 

The Chief Pilot conducts recurrent training on the company training pilot; they mark there time up and down at the start and end of the flight and both agree that the total flight time of the training flight was 1.2 hours Flight Time (from first lift off to last landing - 1 start).

 

After shut down they check the approved electronic cycle and airtime counter on the aircraft. The Airtime states 0.9 hours (which makes sense, since they landed 20 times in the 1.2 hour period).

 

Their COM states recurrent training requires a minimum 1.0 hours flight time. The pilot

 

Should they start the aircraft back up and go do another 0.1 airtime to make sure their TC inspector is happy?

 

We were required to have pilots travel back to base to make sure they got that extra 0.1 air time before further flight.

 

Had I paid any of the licenced FTU's in North Bay for an hour of flight training (as 3rd party), I'm pretty sure the pilots would not have received 1.0 hour air time.

 

If an inspector makes a finding on this, is a legitimate finding?

 

If it is, then shouldn't pilots also be using air time whenever "Flight Time" is discussed?

 

 

[Freewheel]

You guys are over thinking the s#@$ out of this...No wonder Transport is so hard to get along with or misunderstanding if they get questioned on stupid crap like this. Maybe i'm missing something but seemed pretty simple to me since I've been flying/training.

So don't think? just do as they say...regardless of whether it is inconsistent with the regulations and common industry practice?

 

I used to feel the same as you until TC started the conversation with findings.

 

I think you are way off base with the No wonder comment. It's exactly the opposite if you ask me.

[MEOB]

"The Chief Pilot conducts recurrent training on the company training pilot; they mark there time up and down at the start and end of the flight and both agree that the total flight time of the training flight was 1.2 hours Flight Time (from first lift off to last landing - 1 start). "

You answered your own question

Their COM states recurrent training requires a minimum 1.0 hours flight time"

 

They did 1.2. They require 1.0 so they did .2 over the minimum requirement of Flight Time. I just don't think about things like this that seem to be such common sense. I have never had or heard of anyone question It. When i'm out flying I think about the task at hand and the out come, ect. of course. But, something as simple as Air time kind of speaks for its self. Time spent in the Air! Never thought any more of it than that, why would I? Keep it simple. But Im sure we can rant and roar some more till theres another regulation or another piece of paper work or matrix to fill out at the end of the day to figure out what we should write down for times.

 

​

[RDM]

MEOB…… beaten a dead horse cuz…. 33 pages on this liking reading a ladies love novel! haha

[MEOB]

Hahaha agreed. 33 pages and almost 3 years. But sometimes ya got to stir the pot a little.