Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Freewheel]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

 

What would happen as a short term corrective action at your organization if it was identified that 1)many many employees were unclear about a basic policy

2) this policy relates to a basic task that they complete very frequently

3) and regulatory compliance in many areas was dependant on this task)?

 

At my workplace the person responsible for the policy would distribute a notice to all employees who it affects, clarifying the policy...like GAPL 2005-02. There is another possible short term CAP for the individual flight time "issue".

 

Generally Short Term CAPs have completion dates of much less than a year.

[Freewheel]

Unless of course I have late ulterior motives...and I prefer that you are confused...

 

IMHO, we should not have to have this discussion; with something as basic as this, both us should both be able to pick up the phone from anywhere in the country, ask for clarification and receive a prompt response. Most importantly, both responses should be consistent. If this is not the case, then we have identified a problem that requires attention.

 

I'm pretty sure Transport Canada's Service Charter says something like that...

[Freewheel]

(I don't think anyone is confused by the way)

Maybe you should go back to page 1 and start reading; I'll be surprised if you still feel this by the time you back to this page.

 

Aside from the hundreds of varying pilot posts, there are e-mails posted that show my POI advising me that HQ (Alex Roberts and Robert Freeman) confirming that Flight Time equals Air Time in all cases.

 

Then we have the director of standards Jacqueling Booth stating:The reality is that helicopter flights do not end when the helicopter touches a surface, but rather "the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight"as per the meaning within Subsection 101.01 (1) of the CARs. Within your scenario, "flight time" might continue while the helicopter is in contact with the surface but still under control by the pilot in command. If the intent is to not terminate the flight at this time and where there is no intent to shut down the helicopter, then the flight time should continue to be logged.

 

There is also letter from the Associate Director of Operations,Yves Lemieux stating that interpretations 1) and 3) are consistent. My response is also posted and then he "does a complete 180" on the issue and states they obviously are not consistent and interpretation 3) is correct.

 

I don't know...seems like some are just a tad confused...

I kinda think that the day you can convince TC that a pilot can log the same hours that the customer is billed but differ from the journey log flight hours(even if some are doing it now) will be the day a certain hot spot gets cold,,,but just mho is all.

I think it might be getting frosty down under; Here is what used to be written in my TC approved COM :

 

4.18 Flight Records

 

(1) Company Flight Report Forms shall be completed after every revenue flight. The pilot shall ensure that the customer signs the completed Report.

 

(2) The aircraft journey log book shall be completed at the termination of each flight or daily, after a series of flights by same pilot-in-command. Pilots shall ensure that each column of the journey log is completed. Do not use the words "Full" or "Within Limits" actual figures shall be used. Flight Time and Air Time are the same for skid equipped helicopter, accordingly the recorded times shall be identical.

 

Here is what it says now (approved January 2012):

4.18 Flight Records

 

(1) Company Flight Report Forms shall be completed after every revenue flight. The pilot shall ensure that the customer signs the completed Report.

 

(2) The aircraft journey log book shall be completed at the termination of each flight or daily, after a series of flights by same pilot-in-command. Pilots shall ensure that each column of the journey log is completed. Do not use the words "Full" or "Within Limits" actual figures shall be used.

"Air time" with respect to keeping technical records is defined as, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing;

"Flight time" means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

 

NOTE: In the case of flights with multiple landings and take-offs between start and shut down, "flight time" shall continue to be logged while the helicopter is in contact with the surface but still under control by the pilot in command. If the intent is to not terminate the flight and where there is no intent to shut down the helicopter, then the "flight time" should continue to be logged.

 

 

What does yours say? How is it possible for these two statements to bothc be approved as consistent with the CARS? Or are you one of those people who also see the two interpretations as "consistent"? by your comments I don't think so...

 

 

[Freewheel]

Oh and by the way, we employ several pilots who work at several companies throughout the year...so how does that work? When they work for me they have a legal obligation to log as per my COM and when they work at your company they have to log differently? These pilots are asking that very same question (and I have no answer).

 

It's also impossible for us (and them) to maintain the integrity of the system that monitors our pilots flight time limits as per CARs 700.15

[sirlandsalot]

Oh Yay,, check in to the forums, the logbook flight time thread is still going strong oooo the excitement

[Skidz]

Oh Yay,, check in to the forums, the logbook flight time thread is still going strong oooo the excitement

 

What can I say. Slow time of the year I suppose. Sure beats reading about Feliks' new horsepower meter idea though...

[skullcap]

Do you really need to ask if ours says that,,,,ha ha..my lanta.

 

Why would both be approved,,,because you asked for it to be approved and seems as though there is no law against what you are asking. Many COM represent the law in different fashions and yours is more restrictive than the law and thus allowed. You can put in completely different flight duty time limits in your COM as long as they remain within the law and will be approved. But now yours become the law. So now your pilots when they put in 2 hours in the journey log for what they flown but 3 in personal log will of course have to use the 3 hour in flight duty time limit or do you have a slide rule or app to explain that?

 

Our company employs one pilot who is a miserable sob and believes in what is common sense, to log what is flown. ME.

[Winnie]

I still don't see the problem here...

 

The cars state that you log FLIGHT TIME in your log book, your duty day is based on FLIGHT TIME, the CAR's designate FLIGHT TIME and AIR TIME in CARs 101,

 

The ONLY place AIR TIME is logged is in the JL. Ours happen to have a column for both, I guess it can keep us honest.

 

Flight training should ALSO LOG FLIGHT TIME, it is clearly stated in the 700 series of the CARS.

 

And the CARs definition of FLIGHT TIME and AIR TIME should be gospel, interpretations thereof should be made and published by TC, and not vary province to province.

 

I know certain companies that do certain specialty contracts only log AIR TIME for one particular job involving fuel, because it allows pilots to go for 4 full weeks without busting limitations... And is IMHO LYING... and cheating... Just to save money on crew changes.

 

ONLY in Canada is this a problem, and ONLY because TC has deemed it correct to publish that COM that everyone uses, using AIR TIME as the basis for training. In stead of demanding 1 hour of AIR TIME (or whatever the case may be) they should demand say 3 hours of FLIGHT TIME to cover XX exercises out of the training syllabus.

 

On one machine I get to fly, we have some 60 different emergencies/malfunctions etc. and Transport demands that we practice EVERY SINGLE ONE every year... how idiotic is that??

 

Anyway, as I said, only in CANADA is there confusion on FLIGHT TIME and AIR TIME for helicopters, all because of TC and the COM that Matt Millar et al wrote a long time ago.

 

Clear as mud

 

In your log book, put FLIGHT TIME, which is from THE FIRST TIME YOU MOVE, till the LAST TIME YOU STOP MOVING (1 start)

 

In the Journey log put AIR TIME, which is ONLY TIME SPENT IN THE AIR.

 

Bill your customer whatever you want, to maximize your profit.

 

your personal FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS are based on FLIGHT TIME, not AIR TIME or BILLING TIME...

 

Clear as mud??

 

I think so.

[Skidz]

The problem Winnie, as Freewheel has repeated frequently is that the definition of Flight time as it applies to helicopters is not clear in Canada.

 

The only way to correct the problem is for Transport Canada to get their heads out of their ***** and put forth a clear and precise definition of what constitutes flight time and amend CARs to reflect this.

 

Most flight schools define flight time as Engine on to engine off. I've worked at one place where flight time was FLI on to FLI off (an all Eurocopter euh... Airbus shop). Others is air time + 10%, and others "whatever you can get away with"...

 

It's a real free for all and I guess it will/would affect only those who do something horribly wrong one day and then it all ends up being the PIC's fault, like everything else that's f*cked-up in this industry...

[sirlandsalot]

 

What can I say. Slow time of the year I suppose. Sure beats reading about Feliks' new horsepower meter idea though...

haha, your are right on that!