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And now... what exactly are YOU implying?

 

I hope with libelous statements such as this that you have PROOF that anyone has behaved in this fashion. Hearsay and innuendo is not a valid defense.

 

Show me where anyone has been found guilty of your statement in a court of law, or even charged with the offense.

 

Until then stop slagging other operators for conducting business as they see fit.

 

Add libel to the list of things you don't understand. Did you even read my post?

 

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we are not all here to make enemies with each other, we are here to talk and learn about whats going on in the industry around us. some of us have SEEN things done, not heard, not thought about, but SEEN things actually take place. i have not heard of any of these individuals taking matters to court, why you ask? its quite simple you cant freekin prove a thing! but the blades turned and thats logged time. things break........ yes i am an engineer i have seen broken parts, pieces, helicopters and pilots. READ THIS CAREFULLY. i am stating this so everyone can understand. no one wants to see you get hurt. when companies are desperate, they use desperate measures. there are a lot of companies out there right now that are desperate. i / we are trying to make unaware people aware of all the things that happen when your company gets desperate. just open your eyes and ears and listen to what experienced and unexperienced people have to say. it may just save your life whether you know it or not. just trying to help

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we are not all here to make enemies with each other, we are here to talk and learn about whats going on in the industry around us. some of us have SEEN things done, not heard, not thought about, but SEEN things actually take place. i have not heard of any of these individuals taking matters to court, why you ask? its quite simple you cant freekin prove a thing! but the blades turned and thats logged time. things break........ yes i am an engineer i have seen broken parts, pieces, helicopters and pilots. READ THIS CAREFULLY. i am stating this so everyone can understand. no one wants to see you get hurt. when companies are desperate, they use desperate measures. there are a lot of companies out there right now that are desperate. i / we are trying to make unaware people aware of all the things that happen when your company gets desperate. just open your eyes and ears and listen to what experienced and unexperienced people have to say. it may just save your life whether you know it or not. just trying to help

 

Well said.

 

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Does anyone have anymore info about the contract? How many hours is it worth, who is buying the fuel, and who are they buying the fuel from.

 

I think that we need a little more info before we can make an honest call about why these operators have a lower price.

 

1) If the operator is selling the fuel at a marketed up rate, bonus. Are they billing a said amount per hour flown (i.e. 170ltr/hr for a B2) or are they billing what it actually burns. A B2 doesn't burn 175ltr/hr all then time. That could make an extra $50+ an hour if you are selling the fuel

 

2) Are these operators working out of there own base, and does crew lives in the town were they will be working. You can save $100 a day on hotel and 40-60 a day on per deems and even away from base pay if they are full time. X2 if they have an engineer with them you could save anywhere from 150-300per day

 

3) Are you sending an engineer with the machine, for an a-star that can be 15-43$/hr

 

4) Are you billing run time and putting air time in the logbook. An extra point one here and a extra point one there next thing you know it is an extra 10% of profit, so your 1100/hr is know 1210/ hr and you don't DOC on that 10%

 

5) Do these companies run Hull insurance, that could be a huge saving right there.

 

6) What is company’s game plan? Did they buy a new B3 2 or 3 years ago when they were not worth as much as they are now and you are going to run it for a 500-1000hr and sell it for what you bought it for?

 

7) Or the company is hurting pretty bad financially and they need cash flow to make it to next summer, and hope that it is a better fire season. If anyone out there owns a helicopter company and says that they wouldn't drop there rate just to stay open a little longer and hope that the next season will save them, I think that they are lying.

 

 

8) All these point are not sacrificing maintenance, or lower pay scale

 

and lets remember, DOC only cost you when those parts come due. If you have the approval to extend your O/H's buy 10% or a couple hundred hours. Well then you don't really, have any DOC on those parts during the exetension, more profit. Or if you are a company who stocked up on parts when the dollar was good, and the work was plenty. Perhaps your DOC is less then other company's that didn't do that.

 

All I am trying to say is that there could be good reason why there rates are lower then everyone else’s. Just because one company needs to get 1400/hr to stay in business doesn't mean everyone else does. Until we know all the details we are just assuming, and we all know what happens when we assume.

 

I don't agree with low balling, but I would think that a high percentage of the operators have lowered there rates at one time or another to get a contract. Unfortunately it is part of our business.

 

And no I don't work for one of those low ballers

 

SW

 

 

 

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Jeez, there's a lot of pent up angst in this room, methinks.

I'm pretty sure we can all understand what's hapening here, whether we agree or not. Supply vs. demand, no? How many vultures can one carcass feed before someone goes away hungry, or fights break out to get the last of the bone-pickings...? I'm not going to waste my time and reputation slamming these companies in a public forum because they're doing what they need to do in order to survive. Are they supposed to just roll over and die for the better good? Hey, who knows, maybe they'll actually make money, or maybe they're just working for cashflow (in which case we prolly won't have the pleasure of using them as cannon fodder for much longer) - I don't know!

Alberta Forestry isn't stupid. They've been awarding contracts for a long time and know what's up. I think it's totally unreasonable to assume that they're going to expect everyone to lower their rates to meet lowball standards, unless everyone starts to. Do you think they've ever seen a tender without a low bid? C'mon.

Now, that said - I couldn't agree more, rate cutting and lowballing is very bad for the industry as a whole. Charge a low rate a few times and it quickly becomes the norm. Everyones profit margin leans out, and less of us retire fat and rich. Personally, I want to retire fat and rich - so everyone raise their rates 10%, okay?

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This happens every few years, I remember back in 1992 a large company in Edmonton cut staff by I believe 120 people and I was one of them, so I went on to another job took a pay cut and never looked back.

The point of this is we are in a world wide recession five years from now more than likely half of the company's in Canada will be gone, it's just how it goes, first to go will be the company's with lot's of leased helicopter's, second to go will be company's that are heavily financed. The company's that will survive are the one's that own helicopters outright they will will carry on with business as normal and watch the other company's fail, they may cut rates, they may cut wages but they will still be in business. This has happened many time's before and we all know that. You will see rates start to fall for helicopter's also you will see wages start to fall, mostly in the form of yearly earnings. Most of this has all ready begun to happen and most people do not even know it.

 

18 speed

 

P.S. I would have loved to see the 205 and 212 pricing.

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It is interesting that all the Grande Cache awarded bids where not posted, I think there was 2 or 3 machines for that area? along with the 205? did Guardian win thisese bids with more than 1 machine? APC did not even post all the bids to see what the 'others' bid.

 

Never the less, the rates where cheap, that is too bad, but business is business. I guess there are ways to run an Astar cheap, time will only tell the outcome of this project.

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Add libel to the list of things you don't understand. Did you even read my post?

 

 

Yes, I read your post... repeatedly... to be sure of what message you were conveying.

 

And to clarify for your information...

 

Libel: "A written statement which unjustly seeks to damage someone's reputation"

 

I believe that you wrote something to the effect that these operators have stolen fuel. When you and others comment that these "lowball operators" steal fuel, it makes me question the validity of the rest of your posts.

 

Perhaps you should refrain from mud-slinging.

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Hello! Hello! Is anyone awake out there! If one goes from coast to coast in Canada, one can get a Bell 206 for as little as $499.00/hr on a 300 hr/year contract to as high as $900/hr on a very short-term contract. Bell 212's have gone for as little as $500/hr for a 65 hr seasonal contract with a provincial fire-fighting agency. In doing so, an Operator who actually had the nerve to ask $1,600/hr for his 204C on the same contract the year before, was 'sent packin'. BEFORE one passes judgement on the sanity of any of these figures, one has to have ALL of the inside info on the bids and contracts and companies financial details. One can 'play' all manner of games for maybe 2-3 years under certain circumstances, but at that point they either stop or have a visit from a Trustee in Bankruptcy.

 

Sorry folks, but there is nothing at all new here and it was all going-on as far back as '69. Every year one hears some report that convinces him/her that some operator is 'giving away' their a/c or have taken leave of their senses. Same thing takes place in F/W each year, so where have a lot of people been living these past eons.........Mars? You want a decent rate for your F/W or R/W, then stay the **** out of North America and go 'Offshore' where the rates are higher.

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Yes, I read your post... repeatedly... to be sure of what message you were conveying.

 

And to clarify for your information...

 

Libel: "A written statement which unjustly seeks to damage someone's reputation"

 

I believe that you wrote something to the effect that these operators have stolen fuel. When you and others comment that these "lowball operators" steal fuel, it makes me question the validity of the rest of your posts.

 

Perhaps you should refrain from mud-slinging.

 

I've read the post also, repeatedly... I don't thing ame206350 ever mentioned someone referred to in this thread had stolen fuel. He said that one should read the posts about the fuel theft and implied that this may be the tip of the iceberg in this sketchy area. I can't discern to which operator this "liable" statement was directed.

 

It's unfortunate that just a year ago rates were somewhat premo and now they're in the tank. Yes, there is information missing as to where the operators are financially and no one but the person(s) making the decisions should know what's good for them. Time will tell if their decisions now will turn out to be good ones.

 

It's a touchy subject for everyone and both camps have justifiable arguments. 'nuf said... :rolleyes:

 

RH1

 

 

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